Daredevil - Second Life

[bugmenot]

In my opinion, the 2003 Mark Steven Johnson adaptation of Daredevil got a really raw deal in theaters. A mediocre hit that raked in $70 million dollars its first weekend with really mixed reviews.

The Director's Cut laid testament enough to the fact that with enough incentive, studio interventionism is an evil policy. Far more deserving than the 44% rating it earned with the TC, it at least demonstrates Mark Steven Johnson as a Goyer-caliber storywriter, but not as main scribe.

Daredevil's comic book history is not unique to this treatment, having survived numerous shake-ups and impending cancellations over the years at Marvel, and shunning its 2nd-rate status in exchange for a marquee spot in Marvel Knights.

If I were Avi Arad, I would quickly consider atoning for my sins, and grabbing the property rights from Fox before they can do any more harm. As we have seen, thematically similar materials such as Spiderman and Nolan's Batman went onto great success, as well as Hollywood's recent interest in mining Frank Miller's own work, and extending to him the right to pull the lever on other works (The Spirit, next: Buck Rogers). Even Jon Favreau went on to direct Iron Man, a much more superior adult comic-book adaptation.

When will the Man With No Fear get his own due?

To many DD fans, Daredevil has transcended the labels of Marvel's Batman or a clone of Spiderman over the years, especially under the era of talented writers like Kevin Smith and Brian Michael Bendis. Recently, Miller and Jason Statham both expressed interest in teaming up for a Daredevil reboot. If one thing is clear, Miller is too enamored with period camp to faithfully adapt even his own works into the medium of film - the man is off his rocker, lost his marbles, whatever. Michael Clarke Duncan of the original should be kept away as well, as it is clear he does not understand how to portray his character. Also, though the rumors are quite outdated by now, I think people will barely miss Ben Affleck, Jennifer Garner, and surely do not want to see Hayden Christiansen step into the role.

This is a property that has been waiting for its fair shake. With proper execution, I'm sure that this could generate a lot of success for the title. He is truly the middleman between Peter Parker's Spiderman and Batman's true persona, Bruce Wayne. With a little coaxing, this could be the next sleeper hit Marvel needs.

Plus, I'd welcome him more in an Avengers or Marvel Knights movie than the abomination to continuity that Thor and the Hulk are adding up to be. What does everyone else think? Would you like to see a DD reboot or a sequel?

[TGDirector]

I'd say reboot it. That's probably the best way to go about it. Why give up a great character storyline in a sequel when it wasn't well developed in the first try?

Let's try again. New actor, new writer and a deserving director. Before we talk about who's who. Let's talk about pitching ideas, concepts, a tagline and a plot. When we get something that's better and stronger. Then we can talk about our "Who's who." Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Everyone seems to be making those mistakes in Comic movies these days.

Who'd like to start?

[guitar_dudester91]

I agree with TGDirector. I know my last replies to his posts weren't the nicest or most agreeable, but I think he has the right idea.

Ben Affleck didn't do that bad of a job, but it wasn't great, and I think marvel could find a better person to do it. Also, don't bring Electra into right away. Instead maybe adapt the DareDevil Yellow storyline, losing his father and having his first suit be yellow, with his friend and him pairing up for a law firm.

It might turn out to be better than Colin Ferrell mashing up Bullseye.

[bugmenot]

The problem is, even though in the comics world, it was Daredevil who reinvigorated TDK, it is the opposite this time around with the movies, and both characters share more than a marked similarity in certain areas.

While I would love to see a somewhat Nolanized version of the film, I do not want to see the rights stay with Fox, even if it means being lightened up by Marvel as they take the rights.

As for a story, I know where it would invariably go - right into the Born Again and Guardian Devil storylines, but that's not much of an answer to your prompt.

I think the main villain should still be Kingpin, of course, and Karen Page should be the main love interest (as she was in the comics). Where to go from there though, I haven't much a clue, although I could quickly whip out a Batman Begins version of DD =/.

A few things that I do think are important though. Favreau should come back as Foggy- if he's not too busy with Iron Man, or even if he can fineagle his way in charge of this reboot, that would be awesome.

A change of locales might be in order, although this immediately reeks of BMB and/or Iron Man. Hell's Kitchen is such a vital part of the comics though, so the origin arc would have to be done there.

Furthermore, the suit will probably be the trickiest - as it has to have some flash, but a lot of subtlety, and not the leather jumpsuit clusterfuck from the original.

My rough idea would be that the same events of the first one could be lifted over, as well as adding Stick, DD's mentor, as a young child to teach him self-defense, etc...

I have a few ideas where it could end too. I really liked the idea of the original DD being a man who had no fear, but couldn't catch a break. In the comics, this often meant he overstayed his welcome, didn't have normal human intuition, etc. I'd love to see the beginning of the end of his law career and his friends, Foggy and Karen, forced to leave him (like witness protection or something equally intense). Urich of course could still be his friend, as I really liked that noirish aspect in the original.

Who knows, it sounds as if a seqboot might be in order, but a completely fresh start might still be better...

[TGDirector]

What's usually the best way to start the story? From beginning. I mean, let's ask ourselves these questions on what we need to know or always curious about.

Where did DareDevil get his suit? How'd he come up with it?
If the city's called Hell's Kitchen, do you we think it should look a lot worse than the orginal movie?
What can we do about certain characters? Each one has to lead somewhere. Gotta have some depth.

What else am I missing?

[guitar_dudester91]

Personally I really liked Daredevil Yellow, so I would go with that story myself, or at least use it as Nolan used Long Halloween.

[TGDirector]

Never saw or read the Daredevil yellow. I'll have to. Can anybody give me long story short? But I can tell what Guitar Dudester is saying, use the story like Nolan did with Long Halloween. But in the same breath, make a few changes like suits, technology etc. A little re-invention. lol. Come on, I am up for a little story time.

[guitar_dudester91]

Well Daredevil Yellow is pretty hard to find, so here goes:
Matt Murdock is blind, and its established that he has traing. His father is a boxer, and is supposed to take a fall, which he doesn't which results in the mob killing him. Meanwhile, Matt and Foggy open up a law firm. Matt falls in love with his new assistant, but she is in love with Daredevil. (Daredevil was born out of Matt's dad's yellow boxing robe, hence the title.) So she is captured by a villain, I don't remember who, the story is a little fuzzy, but he saves her. They fall in love, but she dies, but the story doesn;t cover that. So the story is narrated in the past, by the future Daredevil writing his love a letter. Sorry, I don't remember her name.
But ya, a little re-imagining would make it a little better and more current.

[bugmenot]

You can DL a digital version of it via torrent. Even though the whole point of comics is kinda to have the print form, if you just wanna famliarize yourself with it or such, you could look there.

I remain intrigued by the idea of Yellow; just finished reading Man With No Fear today, Frank Miller's own origin story. It was originally intended to be the treatment for a Daredevil film... IN THE MID-90s! This is at the height of the original Batman series, way before Spiderman was a twinkling in James Cameron's eye. Disappointing to say the least. While the art wasn't that great and neither was the whole Elektra story-arc, I enjoyed it. As far as I know, MSJ drew heavily from it, but I would be up for a blend of both origins.

The problem you guys have to realize, and I think I iterated this before, is that you have to give it a unique enough twist to it so it avoids comparisons to Batman. Which is hard to do.

I mean, their origins are almost identical.

-Father killed
-Trained by mysterious ninja clan
-Both are described as overcoming their fears and choosing "demonic symbols" and such
-Refuse to kill people; code of honor
-etc, etc, etc.

That's literally how their origin works out too. Problem is people forgot that was Batman's origin before 2005. Now you're shit out of luck if you try to go the same route.

[bugmenot]

Alas, here's my tweaked origin story. It's kinda long, but note I DID omit some important details:

-It starts by showcasing young Matt's temper and how it gets him into trouble. His pride and such. (Something I added). For a more realistic bent and to shy away from that retarded radar sense, Matt already demonstrates some abilities without being blinded, since it's in his blood. His dad is a skilled fighter and possibly former agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
-Matt's father violently scolds him. After this, he runs away from home to reflect on what he's done. Due to guilt, Jack Murdock decides to join a racketeering and hustler ring, as well as keep his "honest work" as a washed-up boxer.
-Matt spends the night in a church alone. The next day, he rescues an apparently handicapped man from an oncoming accident shipping hazardous waste. (Instead of the original old fart he saves, it will actually turn out to be his new mentor, Stick.)
-Blinded, his dad makes a promise to him to clean up, but Matt is cynical. ***Now skip to college***
-Matt has a casual fling with one of Stick's other disciples, Elektra. They double date with his roommate Foggy Nelson and mutual friend Karen Page.
-His dad pays for his education with his life, when instead of being paid to take a fall, he sends it to Matt at Colombia State and fights. The mood is different from the comics. This fight is broadcast on TV. Jack Murdock's career is reinvigorated for a moment, but he is killed soon after. This forces Matt to re-examine his life. Overburdened with guilt and a temper, he leaves Colombia State before graduation to stalk his father's killers.
-Chasing his dad's employer, the Fixer, to a night club, he accidentally causes the death of a prostitute, adding to his grief. He learns the hard way that the law is not black and white. This forces him to evaluate many career moves, and causes him to live a self-deprecating life, breaking up with the "dangerous" girl, Elektra, in favor of making one with Karen Page- and selling his future short in a promising Boston law firm to work. Stick also abandons him.
-With the Fixer dead, numerous gangs pounce on his empire. Up the ladder is the overlord, Wilson Fisk, who will become the Kingpin. He is consolidating his mob business in NY, starting with Hell's Kitchen. He assigns a hitman named Lark to investigate who killed the Fixer, and exact revenge.
-Lark identifies the young killer as Matt Murdock, takes Karen and Foggy hostage, and threatens to kill one or both of them until Murdock turns himself in.
-Murdock attempts to save them, disguised in a costume rehashed from his dad's old boxing robes. In the process, Karen is injured, Larks killed. He flees, while Karen and Foggy now know the truth behind the killings of the Fixer.
-The police flood the scene, rushing Karen to the hospital. While in truth, she "lives", Murdock and Foggy pronounce her as dead. Sacrificing his own future for both of them, Murdock has them both put in a witness protection program, as Kingpin owns the police. If he finds out the truth, Murdock's vigilante career is prematurely over. And so is his driving quest for vengeance.
-By the end, he realizes he was out of his element with Karen Page, not realizing he forced his wants to be his needs instead. His future is now in doubt, with his best friend now free to court Karen, a stack of bodies due to his recklessness, and a new realization of the dual responsibilities he has to procure justice. He changes his suit and adopts the name Daredevil, and starts a new friendship with a reporter named Ben Urich.

TO BE CONTINUED...

Into Born Again? Guardian Devil?



It still leaves an awful, third-rate Nolan taste in my mouth, but what are you gonna do. I also think it could be easily tweaked into a sequel idea, but the themes are there, which is I think what matters.

-Don't bite the hand that feeds you
-Morality is seldom legislated
-Catharsis makes things worse

Etc.

What do you all think?

[TGDirector]

Actually I like that. If you think about it, there's a real difference between Batman & DareDevil. I believe from what I read, that DareDevil is filled with more hatred and anger than Batman probably ever will be. Sure, they're both responsible for certain amount of deaths. But the problem is DareDevil takes it harder, he saw what he was resonsible for, he saw what was in his hands. He could've made the difference. But didn't. Batman on the other knew what he was responsible for, but it wasn't entirely his fault or in his hands. Batman learned to deal with that emotions and anger. Daredevil's story is showing that he has a lot of trouble dealing with it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the 2003 Daredevil film. When Murdock lost a case to a rapist. Then at night when he becomes DareDevil, he goes after him. He didn't try to save him, didn't try to show mercy. He let him die on the train track. "You see that light? That isn't Heaven" he says. The real difference is DareDevil will let his enemy die and in fact watch them die. You have to ask yourself "Does he enjoy it? Is there some sort of satisfaction for him to bring the law into his own hands in a way?"

But Batman on the other hand, he won't let his enemies die. Its in his nature that he tries to save as many lives as possible good or bad. That's where Batman makes that mistake on letting certain people live. They always seem to find a way somehow, some way. It's an endless war for Batman to really be honest.

In a sense, yes. DareDevil & Batman are similiar, but they're two entirely different people.

[bugmenot]

Well, while that's true, that appears to be an addition that MSJ made to the script. In fact, if I remember correctly, a lot of critics lambasted it just for that. I mean, it could be that way, but you see - that whole death thing...that's more of the Punisher than Daredevil. The Punisher is like a twisted Rorschach type character with less development.

[TGDirector]

The point of The Punisher is that he punishes his villians himself without mercy. But DareDevil will sit there and watch them die if he had a choice to save them or not. Accident wise or not. There's a difference between commiting a murder and just watching someone die. Sure, there's a certain degree of wrongness towards that but I think that's where we see DareDevil in his story, learning to cope with what he's experienced and what he decides to do with those feelings.

[bugmenot]

Well, at least in a first installment. Or in this take. In the 2003 movie, he does resolve this at the end by letting the Kingpin go- which is a marked departure from your theory. Just my two cents.

But it might work in a reboot.

Actually, this brings me to something else. I've been thinking lately about something I read on another forum, wondering if a plain seqboot might solve this film's failure like the Hulk, but Iuno. I hated IH2008. The beginning was promising, but in the end, Liv Tyler's mushy panting, the whole Blonsky plot hole, and the CGI slugfest at the end killed it. And the opening credits were poorly edited and cheesy. Plus audiences might not forgive a new movie as much, even if it was a huge increase in quality- it might ring fake.

But eh...be nice to see a dark, gritty director like Aronofsky or David Fincher to adapt. Hey, that means we could have Brad Pitt as Daredevil. (Lol, joking)

[TGDirector]

It could work. I would really like to see Daredevil's learning segments spread out into different movies. And only reasons being is so we can add alot more drama and a more human version of DareDevil. Let's see exactly why he's given the name DareDevil. He's not forgiving, especially not in the beginning of his Vigelante Career.

[bugmenot]

It's because as a kid, he was a little punk, so to speak. It's heavily hinted in Miller's retcon (read: origin story), that Matt is subject to peer pressure, even before he becomes blind. So much so that the first page, he's stealing a cop's billy club. Which sets up how he gets the weapon.

Now I liked that part...because he hides it and you don't see it again for almost another 15 years. That's what I'm trying to get at, though. Here's a kid who thinks he's the shit, but everyone sees as a loser, specially after he's blinded and his dad makes him clean his act.

I also want to emphasize the predestination element of it, that isn't so played upon in superhero films. Since he's Catholic, he'd obviously view it a lot differently than an agnostic or an atheist would- this whole crisis. And he has an outlet for confessionals. That aspect of DD was really accomplished, moreso in the Director's Cut. I would have kept the confessional scene from the TC though, as well, as it seemed unique enough to spare redundancy, but that's just me...

Above all, I think what's most important is that the rights fall out of Fox's hands. I don't feel Marvel Studios would do a better job per se, but Fox clearly is making the same mistake they made originally, which could mean the movies get shelved forever.

I mean, Punisher's had its third go. It's probably gone now. Daredevil was fucked just to suit all the Spidey kids, and while it worked, most of them were suckered back in by Spidey 3 and Batman. Now they want to chase after another franchise again...Fox hates cerebral films. They hated Singer, loved Rattner and Story. That should explain it in a nutshell for you.

Now that we have a rudimentary plot, I think we can pitch some roles now.

Unknowns have made star casting a non-issue, as Snyder has shown us. Hell, indie directors have shown us that for the last several years.

And if he were interested, I'd say the best director for the job, or at least to produce it, would have to be David Fincher.

His dark, gritty style is fast becoming a trademark, and he knows when he sees a good script. Maybe Kevin Smith could even write it. That would be a cool team-up. Only thing I'd be worried about is the profanity and perhaps a little too juvenile direction (and by juvenile, I mean OVERLY-dark, OVERLY-cynical). These things need moderation, but who knows what those two could come up with?

[TGDirector]

I guess we've established that there's quite a bit we can do with this world. Question is where they go with it. Not really up to us unfortunately. But I would like to start talking about cast & crew now.

I'd like to see either Ryan Reynolds or Ethan Hawkes as DD.
David Fincher would be a great choice, but highly doubt he'll go for it.
I wouldn't mind DareDevil being in the hands of James Cameron or who's the guy that's making "Where The Wild Things Are" adaptation?

[bugmenot]

Spike Jonze?

[TGDirector]

I think that's his name. Somebody that knows how to keep his vision. And you wonder why it took so long for the "Where The Wild Things Are" adaptation to finish post-production. Studio kept trying to change it, and he fought it.

We need someone like that in a DareDevil Reboot project. Somebody that can keep it and know what he's doing, not afraid to battle the studio out.